POLL: Age Limit or not?

Edit by Eraser: This topic has been changed into a poll. Read this to see what the new application system involves: http://forum.pulpfortress.com/suggestions-f17/age-limit-or-maturity-pole-t1000-30.htm#13415

Eraserhead wrote:Thank you for the application Xory you seem like a nice person. The only problem is that we have an age limit of 16. So you can't join us.

You may also be mature but we don't know that. We have had a lot of problems with kids of <16 who joined this clan so that's why we've put up this age limit. We did make a few exceptions though.

Please remove the tag for now and get some serious gametime. Make sure everyone gets to know you first before you re-apply. We will only make age exceptions in very rare cases. Vlad for instance was already in the application process when we introduced the age limit. When you look at Orly Failure, you will see has an amazing KD ratio and rank on our servers. So right now you can't apply, maybe later.

I think the age limit rule is a little, well childish(lawl see what I did there), people should be able to judge who gets to join due to maturity, not just because of their age. If we can't weed out the immature kids then we ourselves are immature. The rule should state..

"You must be at least 16 to join or show enough maturity on server to show the existing members and admins that you can handle being in a clan and not be hyperactive and annoying at the same time"

I don't really mind littler kids playing with me or being apart of PULP as long as they can follow this rule.



And thats all i gots to say about that

I was about to make a thread like this, it's just like I said before in some random thread, "someone over 16 can have the maturity of a 12- year old and vice versa." During the trial month and the applicants activity on the forum, we can tell whether they're immature or mature.

Eraserhead and I had a very long discussion about this and we could not come up with a rule good enough to separate the immature kids from the mature ones. This thread is now for ideas for rules that can be put in place to test maturity instead of going by age. ANY POSTS THAT ARE OFFTOPIC WILL BE DELETED. This is a serious thread for serious ideas only and if you are gonna kid around go to another thread.

I think the whole "trial period" is a good enough way to recruit people. How long that trial period should be is not my decision though. It gives time for people to show how they behave themselves with other clan members regardless of age. I mean sure, you can't instantly deny anyone membership just because of one or two mishaps, but that's why you guys keep watch over all the applicants.

Hell, I remember I did a few dumb things on the server, but hopefully none of you guys remember, and I'm sure as hell never doing those things again.


But then again, what the hell am I but just another applicant.

Eraserhead wrote:http://forum.pulpfortress.com/general-discussions-f5/age-limit-vote-t440.htm

Please read this and the topics attached to that topic before posting anything here. I hate to see discussions being repeated. If you have something to say make it something new, well thought trough and not something that has been said before.

The whole thing about maturity is a cliche. Personally i have been AGAINST an age limit, i had doubts about it. But as time progressed i have personally experienced what immature people can do and have become a strong believer in the age limit. True you can still get people of 16+ who are immature but thats why we have the trial period. But it will rule out a large bunch of children of which maybe 10% may be 1-2 years older on the maturity scale then they are in real age.

Here are some examples of immaturity which greatly irritated me:

http://forum.pulpfortress.com/challenge-us-f13/b3-scrim-challenge-t273.htm
http://forum.pulpfortress.com/scrim-team-tactics-f15/time-for-some-pugs-t426.htm
http://forum.pulpfortress.com/flame-thrower-f4/furgus-grow-up-t839.htm

As said before we do make exceptions. Maybe we should just clearly write down in which cases we make exceptions?
When someone has a certain rank and KD ratio?
Maybe we should expand the trial period to 3 months?

The only problem I have with the age rule is that there are exceptions to this. People that are younger than 16 can be mature, we just need to separate them from the immature ones before letting them apply, maybe it should take more votes to get a younger kid into PULP, or maybe even a longer trial period to show they that are dedicated enough and are willing to put the time into this process to be able to join PULP. Also if it takes longer and is harder on them, they won't want to go mess it up. Also we should make it known to them that random threads about silly things are not always needed, no body likes a whiner, and that if you voice annoys people, try not to use it as much

6-8 months would be groovy[lol groovy] time limit for younger kids. As it shows they have patience and we can observe them more.

1TheGizmo wrote:Wow... 100% that my Application is gonna get turned down then ^^ Im a hole lot less mature then he is thats for sure..

I have not noticed this ingame so far Gizmo.

1TheGizmo wrote:And i really don't think its fair to Judge some one on there age you know .. Thats the same as saying all black ppl are Retarded ?.. You can't Judge a book by it covers. +++

I agree you can't judge a book by it's covers. But this rule is here because it makes the procedure for applicants simpler. Same as for football clubs or companies, they all have rules, not everyone can apply. A 13 year old kid could also perfectly drive a car. But does this mean we should have whole discussion about it each time a 13 old wants to drive a car. No. That's why there are rules.

So we could make new rules about people who are <16 and want to join, like Chuck suggested.

I agree with making some exceptions. But an exception should not be an easy thing to get.

I would say that in order to apply, one would need to have a high rank on the server (within the top 75, this will prove that you've played on the server enough and people know you), a KDR above 1, and you have to be approved for application by a level 2 or 3 admin who vouches for you being a mature person. Then we can proceed with the application like normal.

Young Greezy wrote:I agree with making some exceptions. But an exception should not be an easy thing to get.

I would say that in order to apply, one would need to have a high rank on the server (within the top 75, this will prove that you've played on the server enough and people know you), a KDR above 1, and you have to be approved for application by a level 2 or 3 admin who vouches for you being a mature person. Then we can proceed with the application like normal.

Agreed, scrap the age limit and replace it with a maturity judgment.

Young Greezy wrote:I agree with making some exceptions. But an exception should not be an easy thing to get.

I would say that in order to apply, one would need to have a high rank on the server (within the top 75, this will prove that you've played on the server enough and people know you), a KDR above 1, and you have to be approved for application by a level 2 or 3 admin who vouches for you being a mature person. Then we can proceed with the application like normal.

I like this a lot but let me modify it a bit....
Approval of a level 3 admin
Approval of a level 2 admin
At least 36 Hours of play time on the server
Rank in top 150
K/D 1.0
At least a 70% approval rate in the is he mature vote
5 Member Approvals
5 Admin Approvals(the level 3 and 2 ones from above both count towards this)

Eraserhead wrote: A 13 year old kid could also perfectly drive a car. But does this mean we should have whole discussion about it each time a 13 old wants to drive a car. No. That's why there are rules.

Eraser... How do I put this... That's not really relevant. Yes it is comparing age limit rules, but it is a completely different situation.

Our situation: Should we let someone into our group 3 years younger than we'd prefer?
The driving situation: Should we trust someone with a sense of judgement that isn't fully developed drive a large piece of machinery that can kill people with the turn of a wheel or an extra push on the gas?

Using the above information, the driving situation isn't a relevant thing to compare to. Yes, it is an age limit, but it isn't the same situation at all. It reminds me of a time when I was in drivers ed, and told my friend I wish we had a nicer car to drive than an old beater '93 cavalier. (no power steering or ABS...) He then said to me, "Well if you want to make a drivers school where you let kids drive ferraris go ahead." Completely blowing it out of the situation. Therefore, we shouldn't have a concrete limit such as driving a vehicle, because no one's lives are at risk, and the penalties really aren't much at all if the applicant does something wrong.

Plus, if we have an age limit to the clan, we'll still have to play with younger people, because we don't have an age limit on the server. Therefore, the only real problems people would see if a young person were to be in our clan would be our reputation. Yes it is important, however, PULP is meant to have fun with friends. We aren't some exclusive group, were just a good group of friends playing a fun game. What's wrong with sharing it with someone younger, if they can handle it?

Therefore, we should give these younger applicants a good test, perhaps 2 month applying time or something. Make sure most members know him and then see how he turns out, and vote after two months. That's completely fair.

Remember this: The exception we make is whether or not to accept them into the clan. It isn't allowing them to apply. All people should be free to apply, and given there own test. We should judge the person at the end of their month or two months, or whatever, not right out of the gate. That's just not fair.

/end long essay

well its says poll so why not let them go through a week to see if they are mature or not then post a poll for pepole to vote on to see if there should be an exception and put a time limit say 2 days for the poll. or something like that

I think Eraser's point is this (which I agree with). Making random exceptions to allow this player in or that player in can be a huge task and we can't have a discussion every time someone wants to avoid a rule. So to make things simple we can just create a rule that says if you don't meet the age limit you must meet certain criteria. This way there are no exceptions to any rules that require a separate discussion.

jameless wrote:I think Eraser's point is this (which I agree with). Making random exceptions to allow this player in or that player in can be a huge task and we can't have a discussion every time someone wants to avoid a rule. So to make things simple we can just create a rule that says if you don't meet the age limit you must meet certain criteria. This way there are no exceptions to any rules that require a separate discussion.

agree

Chuck wrote:

Young Greezy wrote:I agree with making some exceptions. But an exception should not be an easy thing to get.

I would say that in order to apply, one would need to have a high rank on the server (within the top 75, this will prove that you've played on the server enough and people know you), a KDR above 1, and you have to be approved for application by a level 2 or 3 admin who vouches for you being a mature person. Then we can proceed with the application like normal.

I like this a lot but let me modify it a bit....
Approval of a level 3 admin
Approval of a level 2 admin
At least 36 Hours of play time on the server
Rank in top 150
K/D 1.0
At least a 70% approval rate in the is he mature vote
5 Member Approvals
5 Admin Approvals(the level 3 and 2 ones from above both count towards this)

I do like this idea. Forgot we could measure actual game time on the server :S

I would say up the maturity vote approval to 75%, easier to count and a nice even number, and maybe bring it down to 4 for each side in approvals, but don't count the level 2 and 3 admin votes.

We can just check the stats to measure game time on the server

Hyce, did you read the other topics i posted? The example of the car is relevant because it illustrates that because there is a rule you don't need to have a complicated discussion anytime someone wants to join/drive a car below a certain age limit. It's just pure efficiency.

Look at the thread with firestar, everytime that dude was sending chats too me, like omg eraser biggsly and impalsi are teasing me do something about it. I don't want that kindergarten crap anymore, i don't have the time for it and i don't get pleasure out of it. Or just look at the other examples, all those topics from Furgus because he did not took the time to investigate before posting, then i have to apologize on behalf of the clan to B3 because some kids in our clan insulted them, and so on and so on.

Wow it's great fun to have kids in the clan if you are not the person who has to deal with the problems they create.

Like i said, of course there are kids of 13 who have the maturity of a 16 year old but you have to agree this exceptional!

So let's continue discussing what the rules should be to make an exception.
I would say a 3 month trial at least
Rank in the top 75
KDR +1.0

Also i wish to point out that so far i think it happened only once that someone was NOT voted in. Maybe we need to evaluate the current normal voting system too. We could add another rule about countervotes? In other words, a negative vote so we have yay and nay votes? And maybe a period of how long the voting may take? Otherwise someone can harvest votes over a period of 6 weeks or something.

Then again, lets not make it all too complicated

Maybe we remove the admin/member vote system, and use a yay or nay system where you need to get +5 to be accepted, where every yay is +1 and every nay is -1.

I was also thinking of a voting timeline. Maybe 10 days to get all the votes you need, or you're not accepted.

Yes Eraser, I did. I didn't pick up on that point, however. Yes, it is efficient. However, another thing about cars... Driving permits. An exception that allows kids as young as 15 (yay me) to drive with parental guidance. I like the ideas of a 3 month trial, the KDR, and rank.

Countervotes would be good. If we just have votes, the person will most likely be accepted because there is nothing stopping the votes. Countervotes would stop them, and help filter who we want.

I agree with countervotes.

I don't think that age goes on with maturity. There are many young people I know that are mature. So I think that it should be a maturity thing and not an age. Have a clan with an age limit is crazy cause I remember being young and being a great player at a game and then not being able to join a top end clan. That's just my opinion though.

As much as we'd like to point out exception over exception, age and maturity are directly linked. This has been scientifically proven many times over.

As you go through puberty, your brain develops and changes in many ways. This is just how it is. This particular process is usually finished by the time you are sixteen.

On the internet, many people may show immaturity at an older age, and maturity at a younger age. The fact of the matter is, however, that the younger people are exceptions to the norms of life. Even if they prove maturity for the time being, it could all be a ruse as well. It is easy to fake being a mature and educated person when you're online.

With an older person, they may act immature, but at least there is a guarantee that they can grasp the concept of what maturity means, even if they do not follow this idea.

So basically, this argument boils down to two sides. There is the younger group, who may be mature, or may not even have a grasp on what maturity is, and there is the older group, who either acts immature but at the least understands that they are doing so, or they just act like mature individuals.

The age limit knocks of the absolutes; the younger people who do not have a grasp on what maturity is. It does however also knock off the rare cases of younger people who are quite mature. We have developed the age limit out of personal poor experiences with younger members, like Firestar.

An idea has been presented that gives us this option. We allow underage people to apply if they have above a 1.0 KDR, above a 75 rank on the server, and are known for being good people to play with. If this goes through, it leaves us with three applicant groups. These are...

1. Underage but mature applicants
2. Older, immature applicants
3. Older, mature applicants

Then comes the trial period itself. If all goes according to plan, we play with the applicant throughout their 1 or 3 month trial period often and get to know them. With the suggested Yay/Nay voting system, a true reflection of the person's character will be expressed, and we can actually eliminate all the undesirable applicants. This leaves us with two groups of people in pulp.

1. Underage mature members
2. Older mature members.

And this is where PULP wants to be. Hooray!

Greezy gets a cookie for that.